Valériane Venance, Twilio

Thank you for tuning in to today’s TLDR episode of the Breaking Changes podcast. I am your host and chief evangelist for Postman, Kin Lane. With Breaking Changes, we explore topics from the world of APIs, but through the lens of business and engineering leadership. Joining me today, we have Valeriane Venance, developer evangelist at Twilio and DevRel Salon organizer. Valeriane shared a very pragmatic view of being a developer evangelist and what it was all about. She emphasized the global reach of APIs in our programs and the increasing regulation that is shaping the API landscape. Let’s start with the basics: who are you and what do you do?

So I am Valeriane Venance, I am French, as you may be able to tell regarding my accent, and I am a developer evangelist at Twilio, and it’s been since October 2020 that I joined, so I joined Twilio during the pandemic. And before that, I was a developer advocate for a French cloud company whose name is Clever Cloud.

Well, I know Clever Cloud and I know Twilio very well. So in our previous conversations, I thought your view of developer evangelism and advocacy was interesting. What does a developer advocate do, or what are their responsibilities, in your eyes?

To me, honestly, it really depends on the size of the organization you’re working in. If you’re in a very large organization, then you will probably have many people in the team that will start to specialize on specific things that I can develop later. But if you’re in a smaller company, then even if your title is just developer advocate or developer evangelist or whatever, you might end up doing many things that do fall into the scope of that role, but that will go beyond the scope of what is a developer evangelist or advocate, I’d say. But to me, if I were to give a definition of what is a developer advocate, well, a developer advocate is someone that really is fighting for the best interest of the developers using whatever product it is that the company is building. And so the developer advocate really is the voice of the developers and of what they want and of what they need to be enjoying using the platform or the products, whatever that is.

I agree. Definitely, being in service, being an advocate for the developer, is an important aspect. And I would say, in the API world, API consumers, being an advocate for them, because API producers like Twilio and others, it’s easy to just think about what we want and not pay attention to our many consumers. So I think that’s a pretty important role. Do you have to be a coder to be a developer advocate in today’s world?

I think that depends. I mean, we all know Chloe Condon, and she wasn’t a dev at the beginning of her career, and she’s still doing an amazing job. So in this world, no, maybe in the previous one, yes. Anyway, I think that even if you don’t come from a coding background, then you have to be eager to learn how to code, because you will need it at some point. You will speak and talk, and there’s a lot of problems that developers have, and if you have no idea of what their day-to-day task is like, you cannot help them in a proper way. In a way, I mean, you don’t have to be a super rock-star developer to be a DevRel, but you still need to know how to code at some point.

What are some of the most important ways that you reach developers, to listen to them, to engage with them, and understand what they’re needing?

So this is many questions. I think that now is a good time to be back to in-person events and really just ask the developers about what their feelings are and stuff like that. And I think this is the kind of interaction that I do prefer, because it has this tiny thing that you can’t really emulate on software, I’d say. But otherwise, there are spaces for you to ask questions on specific products, like on Stack Overflow, Reddit. Also having my DMs open on Twitter is very helpful, people, and also LinkedIn, because sometimes I just, yeah, I have this issue with the platform, can you help me? And most of the time I can help them within five minutes. And I also think creating feedback loops from developers, and not just gathering feedback but having it implemented somewhere in the roadmap of product development, and being able to decide what and when to do what, is a very major issue, and I think this is a developer advocate’s role, to be the interface between that feedback and the product teams.

So it sounds like you have to have a pretty good understanding of your product as well as a good understanding of the consumers of that product to be able to act as that bridge.

Yes. And honestly, at such a large company as Twilio, we have so many products, so we have many people that have different interests and different goals when using the platform, so it really is interesting. I mean, it’s challenging because there are so many different products and people and users, but in another way it’s also very rewarding, and I’m sure that I won’t get bored.

So what region are you focused on, and why?

Okay, so I’m focused on EMEA, with a specific focus on France, because I’m the only French-speaking one in my team, so I guess that helps. Especially, I know some regions like France, and also maybe Italy or Spain, there are countries where, yes, people do speak in English, but if you really want to do business with them or to really understand where their deep feeling is, if you go outside of the big cities, then you’ll probably get a big advantage speaking the local language. And the way I do prioritize, let’s say, for French developers, is that I make sure that they have all the resources that they need, so translating blog posts that have been very helpful for the rest of the community in English and having them available in French, and also creating visual resources like webinars. So it’s really about translating lots of stuff that already exists. And there are other things also, because when you come to telecommunications, and this is part of what Twilio does, then there is regulation at stake, and you really have to, I would say, be good at onboarding the people, because regulation isn’t the same in the US as in the UK as in France or in Germany. So when you go somewhere, you really have to understand the local legal context and stuff like that to be able to really help the people, because maybe the product that you know will exactly solve the problem of the person isn’t available up to your country for any regulation issue. So don’t sell them something that would be great if they can’t have it, this will create so much frustration.

Yeah, it sounds like it’s much more than just a language thing or a location thing, it’s about understanding that local context that’s going to matter, and regulation is increasingly a big part of that context.

Absolutely. I mean, even for regulations, it’s definitely not the same in Europe, regulation is super strong with GDPR and stuff like that, and also developers are more, I would say, protective on their private data and whatever. So there are ways to approach people, and even if in the end it’s the same, you can’t ask everything to everyone in the same way. Like if you don’t tell someone why you’re asking them this specific data, where they used to protect this data, they will never give it to you, and they will feel aggressed when you’re trying to get it from them if you don’t explain why.

Yeah. And then the need for this human presence. I mean, Twilio is a public API, but I’m seeing developer advocates emerge for specific industries, for specific regions as we just discussed. Internally I’m seeing more internal advocacy programs and specialists. So if someone’s wanting to get into this line of work, what are your recommendations? How does someone like you get started, find a job, get the skills that are needed?

So, I think it’s funny because I think that many people already do stuff that falls into the scope of the role in their company without even knowing it, and exactly what you say, they are becoming internal advocates without even knowing that this has a name, they think that they are doing extra on their hours. So I will tell what it looks like, and if this is your case, who are listening to us right now, well, keep on doing that, you’re on the right path. So obviously it would be giving presentations to others to let them understand any concept or product that is new, but if you’re demonstrating something technical and making this accessible to someone who doesn’t have your level of knowledge, this is already evangelizing or advocating for something. If you’re writing a blog post, then you’re already in the loop as well. If you like video production or streaming, then this is already stuff that’s in the loop as well. And the path to get there, if you come from a traditional background, let’s say, you’d be a developer, and maybe you can get more involved in your local meetup, maybe help with the organization, or try to speak sometimes. You can also write blog posts, but not only for your company, you can, well, either if you write for yourself then maybe try creating something for your company, and the other way around, if you only write for your company then try having a Medium page or something for yourself. I also think that Twitter, even if it’s like the seventh circle of hell, is something very useful to us. And if you go to Twitter, if you go down that rabbit hole, know that there are many blocking lists that you can use and that you probably want to use to not be exposed to some stuff that’s out there. But really, having a presence, even if it’s just a page, so nobody can impersonate you later, it’s already something. And also blocking your username on GitHub and stuff like that, because if you’re only working in these private GitLab instances, then you will have nothing public, and then somebody will be able to impersonate you. So really define who you are on the internet. This is called personal branding, and you don’t have to do it all and post like every two hours something, but just be there and own your image.

I like that, great advice. What’s your most effective tool? Is it blogging, is it videos, is it in-person talks, all the above? What’s most effective for you?

So I have opinions, and the effects of those all. So I think a blog post is a very good investment of time, as in, if this is something you already know, then it will probably take you between, I don’t know, two hours to a day to write it in full, depending on the complexity, and then you will ask someone to review it, go again on it for an hour, then publish it. And once it’s published, then it will live here forever. I have sometimes people contacting me for a blog post that I wrote like four years ago saying, hey, this is great and this helped me, but I’m stuck here, can you help me please? And I remember that I already had the same thing before, so I can help them as well in two minutes. So this is great, and also this helped me realize how long a blog post can live on the internet and be helpful, because if the product doesn’t change the way you use it, it’s more likely it’s going to work for a while, even if things change fast. Regarding videos, I think the process is a bit heavier, and also that requires way more money, because in today’s world it’s difficult to like arrive on the place and just have a nice video, a nice sound and stuff like that. So this already has the bar that is raised pretty high, and you have to comply to this if you even want to be a bit successful. And also building a community on platforms like Twitch or YouTube or stuff like that, at least one year of investment without seeing anything back, and then after a year, maybe if you’re lucky, then you’ll get something. So you have to be really passionate about that, and you have to know how to edit your videos yourself, and it’s going to take time, or you have to pay your production, so this has a cost. And the last one was in-person that you said, and honestly, I do see myself as an executive and a great executive, so this is definitely the place I love the most, and I feel like even if you’re speaking to a hundred people, the impact is very different, because they might have something with your personality or the way you move or the way you explain things or your voice, and this is just anything in the human interaction that you can’t replicate elsewhere, that really gets the people to like you more than your content, and then they will get to really follow you and stuff like that. This can also be achieved using Twitch or YouTube or video platforms, but it takes a bit more time.

I like that a lot. I would say, I agree with you. I’m supporting blog posts from over a decade ago that I wrote, 2011, 2012, but I also still have people come up and go, you know, you gave that one talk in Barcelona and you spent 20 minutes afterwards talking with me, thank you, it helped my career. And I hate to admit, I didn’t even remember the conversation, it was so long ago, but knowing that you’re making that impact on people and being caring and compassionate and being human in it, I think goes a long way. And I try to reflect on that in my writing, in my speaking, but also in my in-person. I don’t think I always get there, but I really like your approach, I think that’s the human part of what we do.

Yes, I think this is being human and being empathetic. And not putting yourself in the place of the other, because if they hurt, you’ll be hurt as well, and this is insane for you, because when you speak to a hundred people in a day, you can’t be hurt a hundred times. But being empathetic and being able to really feel that empathy for someone’s problem that you want to solve it as if it’s yours, this is really something that is needed, as in, you will get solicited even when you don’t want to, even when it’s late, even when it’s outside of working hours, even if it’s like a hackathon and it’s 3 a.m. and you’re on the way back to your hotel to sleep and someone is really stuck here and really needs your help. What do you do? Well, you have to be empathetic there and human.

Yeah, it’s definitely one of the more important tools in our toolbox, empathy and listening and understanding where they’re at, but it also has a high tax or a toll with it. I spent all last week at my first in-person event, and I’m exhausted, I slept all day Saturday to recover from it. What do you do to recharge and find your creativity and find your inspiration after being on for so many people?

Honestly, it’s kind of the same as you, I do sleep a lot afterwards. And also my secret stuff is that sometimes, so I’m based in Paris, France, and so I get back to Paris and I’m not saying to any of my friends that I’m back, so I’m just enjoying the city alone all by my own for a few days, and in such a large city you are so anonymous that nobody will just see you, you know? So having this disconnected time really helps me as well.

I like it. My two are similar. Mine is napping, I’m taking more naps during the day. My wife says it’s like Windows, you need to reboot Kin halfway through the day so that he operates well. And then time alone like that, sitting in the park with my dog or sitting in a restaurant. Oh man, I miss the cafes in Paris, I wish we had those in California.

So what’s the future look like for you as a developer advocate? Where do you see yourself going in the next few years? Is it just centered on helping and working with people, is it hacking new projects? What do you look forward to?

So honestly, I like the place where I am right now, where it’s almost everything left to invent for doing JavaScript friends, and I really want to keep doing that, just creating the opportunity for developers to have this new tool that they can use, and I think this is really what I enjoy the most, getting from, this is, this wasn’t zero to one, this is one to a hundred, and this is what I like a lot. I’ve worked for startups when I was younger, and I think like very early-stage startups are not for me, as the workload is crazy, the reward is not so big, and I’m just not a starter for myself. If I was, I think I would enjoy creating stuff, and there’s zero to one I would really enjoy, but this isn’t me, and I know that about me. So I really pursued the things that I enjoyed the most. And regarding mid to long term, I have two options. First one is to be a general manager, be a head of developer somewhere in maybe a smaller organization or whatever, or maybe go back to being a full-time dev, and that appeals to me the same way, so I think I haven’t made up my mind yet at all.

Nice, well I’m thankful for people like you, because I would say I thrive more in the early-stage startup, the world building, I love there not being any structure, and I love that work that has to occur, but I’m super thankful for people like you who will step in and take it to that next level and enjoy it and have a good time in that moment, because as soon as I hit that point, I would say Twilio’s at a place where it’s got to get beyond the echo chamber of developer love that I think it has, it’s got to reach a mainstream enterprise audience, and that takes a lot more work and a lot more dedication and empathy. And so I’m thankful for people like you who will see it through.

So it’s good that we don’t all like the same things, because otherwise organizations would always fail, we can’t all do the same job, I guess.

Yeah, I think that’s important, having a diverse set of personalities and voices. I run our developer relations team at Postman, and so the personalities I’m always looking for, I don’t want a team of the same 10 characters, I want a whole cast of characters with different skills and different abilities and different life goals, because I think that makes for the best. I personally see my DevRel as kind of a carnival, a street carnival with different sideshows and acts, some of us are jugglers, some of us play with fire, and it’s all about getting people’s attention but then helping them be successful in what they’re trying to accomplish in their work, in their day, but also feel like they were heard, I think is what I’m trying to achieve.

So with Twilio, what’s the coolest thing that you’ve seen someone build, or would you recommend that someone build, when it comes to the platform?

Honestly, I think one of the coolest things that’s for, you asked, is Video Quest. It’s a video game that is 16-bit design, and the music’s so cool, the visuals are cool, the things you can learn inside are cool, so I think this is one of the coolest things. And the even coolest thing I saw with that is that they built arcade cabinets where you can play through your game, and they had it at some conference in New York, and I wish I was there.

That’s cool. I think gaming is a doorway to many folks when it comes to programming and becoming more technical, and playing games just makes it, I think, a little bit more enjoyable and fun, right before you get to building the boring business tech that a lot of us have to own. So, I mean, it’s been great to talk to, I love your view of things, I hope people listening to this will learn more about developer relations and want to get involved. There’s a lot of opportunities, like we are saying, for regions, for specific technologies, communities, companies, internal, external. So what thoughts or advice do you have for new people, when it comes to, we talked a little bit about getting a job in the space, but as far as being successful and being happy and finding their way as a developer relations?

Yeah, so my best advice would be, since you can be definitely full remote these days, find your community, find your local DevRels, because we’re here to help people, we love to help developers, and we even love more potential DevRels. I myself host the DevRel Salon in Paris, and I see the community growing and growing, and honestly it fills my heart with joy because it’s just people helping each other being so successful at this job. So to me, find your communities, and Slack for newcomers, on Twitter, I know that there is the Twitter Developers that is sharing tons and tons of awesome content, and if you just scroll down, then you’ll get almost all the knowledge condensed of all the demos that I’ve spoken with, either in video, blog posts, whatever, for the past at least five years. So definitely tons of resources to find there. And yes, try and experiment, always ask for feedback, and don’t take it personally, because most people, when they feel like you, they just want you to be shiny and successful, and let’s get you down, not, so definitely don’t take that like that, and always think of the community, because this is our strength, really being able to build those, but also having one by design when we’re joining the profession.

Yes, thank you for that, I wholeheartedly agree. I think the strength in DevRel is the continued growth in the community that I’ve seen, and in the last five years, it’s a really strong community, people help you learn anything that you want to understand, so it’s a good time to join DevRel. Thank you, I appreciate your time today, this has been great, I love your view of things, and thank you for joining me.

Thank you for having me.

All right, well, hopefully we can talk again soon, but enjoy the rest of your day.

Thank you, and you, see, bye.

Thanks again to Valeriane for stopping by. You can find more about Twilio at twilio.com, and you can find Valeriane on LinkedIn. You can subscribe to the Breaking Changes podcast at postman.com/events/breaking-changes. I’m your host, Kin Lane, and until next time, cheers.