Roshan Patel, Fanatics

Thank you for tuning in to today’s TL;DR episode of the Breaking Changes podcast. I am your host and Chief Evangelist for Postman, Kin Lane. With Breaking Changes we explore topics from the world of APIs, but look at it through the lens of business and engineering leadership. Joining me today we have Roshan Patel, content product manager for blockchain at the Topps company. Roshan introduced me to the intersection of the blockchain and APIs when it comes to delivering more meaningful experiences across a variety of sports, providing a much more compelling view of NFTs and the blockchain than what you might hear elsewhere online today.

Let’s start with the basics. Who are you, what do you do?

Yeah, so I’m a product manager on the Topps NFTs team. So we are kind of in the process of building out our NFT platform where fans can come in, buy, sell, trade, exchange NFTs that are officially licensed collectibles for and from Topps. So for those that are familiar with Topps, obviously a very rich history as it relates to baseball trading cards, but we have a lot of great licenses that we’re trying to leverage in the NFT space. So very new and developing space, exciting space, a new area where I think there are a lot of people that are maybe a little skeptical about NFTs, but hopefully we can demystify some of that in our conversation today.

Yeah, well, let’s keep working our way through the basics here. For those who aren’t as familiar with Topps, what is Topps, what’s traded, what’s the business model, how does that work?

Yeah, so for those that aren’t familiar with Topps, historically speaking, going back 70-plus years, Topps kind of became the officially licensed partner for Major League Baseball trading cards. And for those of us here in the States, obviously MLB is a very popular league, and that’s really where Topps kind of got their foot in this whole collectible space. Funny enough, historically they started out including trading cards in packs of bubblegum, so one of our sister companies, Bazooka Bubble Gum, back in the day you could buy a pack of gum, get a couple baseball cards, and have some fun with it. Obviously over the years that whole idea of collectibles has really expanded across baseball, expanded across soccer leagues, to NFL, NBA, and also a lot of great entertainment properties, one of those being Godzilla. So many fun things. And I think when you look at the hobby over the last handful of years, we’ve really seen an uptick in folks wanting to get back into collectibles. I think the cool thing to see is, especially younger generations like myself and even folks younger, they’re starting to see collectibles as an alternative asset, something that they can potentially put some money into and actually see a return in six months, a year, five years, etc. So when you put that lens on, what is the value of NFTs, or collectibles for that matter, back in the day this is something you kind of put in a binder, collected, had some fun with friends. But I think a lot of people are starting to see the monetary aspect of why these things are going for thousands, or in some cases millions of dollars. NFTs, I would say, very new space, evolving space, but there are a lot of parallels with regard to how we approach our product strategy on the NFT side and really trying to leverage all the great things Topps has done from a physical standpoint as well.

Yeah, so shifting that to the other side, what’s an NFT?

Yeah, so I’ll keep it in very simple terms, but NFT stands for non-fungible token, meaning that NFT, or non-fungible token, is unique to that collectible. When you think about cryptocurrency and things like that, where it’s kind of a one-for-one type deal, those are what you call a fungible token, for most folks that are familiar with what they’ve seen out there at this point in time. Very simply put, an NFT is no more than some sort of digital asset that can be in the form of a JPEG, it can be in the form of an MP4, it can be in the form of a GIF. And I think we’ll get into this today, Kin, but a lot of folks out there think, hey, this is just a digital asset, why can’t I go on Google and screen record or take a photo of this asset and then call it mine? Folks can very well do that. I think where the beauty of all this is, is really on the back end, so being backed by the blockchain technology, where you have this digital ledger of ownership related to this digital asset, that you can trade, sell, start to generate revenue on an ongoing basis. That’s where it gets fun, and that’s where it gets interesting, and that’s where it differentiates from, hey, an image on Google versus an NFT that you can engage with and use to enter these NFT communities.

And that’s kind of where I want to spend a little time talking about with you today. NFTs, like I mentioned, the space is moving so quickly, where we’re not just going out and trying to create a digital asset, but we’re really trying to think about how can this digital asset give you access to communities that you want to be a part of. So as a sports fan, focusing specifically on soccer NFTs at Topps, really my challenge and my goal is to create a quality digital collectible but then allow this collectible to give you access to some really cool things in the physical world. So for example, you own this one-of-one Erling Haaland, who’s a big player for Borussia Dortmund in Germany, Norwegian international, one of the top young stars in the world right now. If you own his one-of-one Topps NFT, maybe that gives you access to a FaceTime meet and greet with the player, maybe that gives you access to going on the pitch before a game or after a game. So there are so many cool utilities, and that’s a word you’ll hear often from folks in the NFT space, but how can we turn this into more than just something that lives on your phone or computer, and how can we turn this into something that gives you tangible fan experiences that maybe you couldn’t have gotten before?

So you ended on the right word that interests me here. I’m not very interested in blockchain, I get it, I’m not super excited about a lot of the ways people are excited there. But I would transfer that to APIs. In the API realm, it’s not the API that matters to me, and I’m obsessive about APIs, but what matters with APIs is the digital experience. People associate APIs with a resource, so Twilio is a popular API, it’s SMS, Stripe is another popular API, it’s payments. And it’s not those APIs that excite me, it’s the experiences that those APIs enable. So those two APIs enable me to get alcohol delivery at my home during a pandemic. And so that’s what really excites me about what you’re talking about, because it’s not just the baseball card from 1978, which is the resource, it’s the fact that I went there with my dad, or I went there with my uncle, or they won the World Series. So there’s a lot more experience being codified into that NFT that matters. So it’s much more than just transferring baseball cards digitally and making it available on the blockchain, right?

Absolutely, and you’ve touched on a couple of really important key themes here, which is the product itself, but almost more importantly is the experience that we’re creating. And oftentimes I use kind of the word digital ecosystem. Having worked in e-commerce prior to Topps, one of the things we used to say a lot is, you know, we don’t want to drive folks to a destination, we want to drive folks to an ecosystem. So once you get them in, where can you drive them down that funnel to either give them more information to learn more about the product, or if they’re ready to buy, getting them right to the buy now page. So kind of two parallel paths here as we go out and build the Topps NFTs marketplace and platform. I think APIs are a very critical piece to how we almost build efficiencies into the digital business that we’ve envisioned. That involves a lot of things, it includes the front-end experience, it includes user flows from signing up to two-factor authentication to being able to buy with a credit card. That’s one of the innovative pieces that we’ve tried to bring to our platform, to try and make NFTs more accessible. A lot of these projects out there, you have to pay with cryptocurrency, and just to open up a digital wallet to buy or trade cryptocurrency is somewhat of a daunting task. It took me some time to really figure out. And I think one thing that we’re trying to do at Topps is trying to make NFTs more accessible, not just for the crypto-savvy folks but also for folks that are just fans of a particular team or a league. So that’s been one of the great things that I think we’ve been doing here at Topps and that will continue to do moving into the future.

And then there’s the product itself. One of the things you mentioned was really around trying to get folks to understand this is more than just a digital asset, and what allows us to open up these really unique opportunities is what is called the smart contract. So each NFT has this pseudo contract associated with it where the world is your oyster, really, you can do whatever you want within that smart contract, and that stuff is all viewable and visible on the blockchain. So I think there’s still some way to go in terms of making the blockchain this truly transparent vehicle for folks to know exactly what they’re investing in and what they’re getting out of the NFT, but the smart contract is something that we’re trying to do a lot of work with on the Topps side to engage and also make some of these really cool physical types of experiences possible.

Yeah, a lot of potential there. And I know your background, when we talked before, you have a product management background, and one of the most critical pieces of APIs, and people don’t always understand this, is that APIs are a journey. It’s not like you put out this API and you’re done, check, we won. You have to iterate and you have to evolve, and you have to have feedback loops with your customers to be able to understand what they need. And so it’s a journey to try to meet that. So I’m assuming you guys have started this journey and are well into it, but there’s a lot of learning and feedback loop mechanisms needed for you all to dial it in and make it something that people actually need and understand and will invest in, right?

Oh, for sure. I think with any digital business, things never go according to plan, doesn’t matter how good your product roadmap is, how many talented folks you have on your team, there’s no better way to learn than by just doing it and iterating as you go. And you mention the product management background, I love that stuff. I love things that just work, they don’t have to be fancy, they just need to work. And oftentimes with technology, things sometimes don’t work and it frustrates customers and it frustrates users. We’ve gone through all those kind of roadblocks and hiccups with Topps, and we have gotten better, and really that’s a testament to our development team and our product management team and really the whole team. And I say this a lot, but before NFTs were even a thing, my passion is soccer, my passion is product management, and for me this was a great opportunity to combine all those things that I’ve been following and doing for the past 10-plus years and bring that together and help build this team from scratch. So it has been a whirlwind for sure, we’re making some really good progress. But to your point, there’s no better way to test and learn. And one thing to mention about this Web3, NFT, cryptocurrency community is we try to leverage community feedback as much as possible. I know a lot of brands do that, a lot of companies do that, but that is one of our main sources of determining what we prioritize on our product roadmap. And I think that’s the beauty of NFTs, is it’s really about the community and the fans, and their customers are very much so a part of the brand or the experience that you’re building. So a lot of the additions that we’ve just implemented on toppsnfts.com are very aligned with, one, business priorities, obviously that’s a given, but then two, kind of working backwards, hearing what the community has to say and trying to deliver features and functionality that make their experience a little more pleasant.

Yeah, so important, that product management experience and view of things, I think is a healthy place, because it can be daunting to make sense and figure out the signal within the noise. And public APIs scare the hell out of a lot of companies because there’s a lot of unknown unknowns. But how do you establish so much confidence? I mean, there’s some shady, not so good things happening, not just with APIs but with crypto in this world. So does this feedback loop help you guys cut through some of that and figure out what’s healthy for business, what’s not, what’s healthy for the community, all of that?

Yeah, absolutely. Even going back to when Topps NFTs really started, which was about one year ago when I joined, even a year ago there were fewer NFT slash crypto companies out there that could provide some of these microservices or API integrations than there are today. So as we were scoping out this project a year ago, which really isn’t that long ago in the grand scheme of building a business, we had to go with partners that had a proven product and that had some sort of success metrics. Fast forward to today, there are a lot more players in the marketplace, there are a lot more potential partnerships to be had. And I think ultimately we’re evaluating every day who are the best partners to work with, who can provide the services that we’re looking for in a very new space. And to your point, yeah, there’s a lot of interesting activity and a lot of potential for fraud in this particular space right now, which is all something that we’re trying to figure out on the back end to make sure we put the right things in place to get some of these bad actors out and keep the folks that are participating in a legal way happy and secure. So to your point about APIs, we’ve gone through some pretty robust payment processing changes over the last few months to help us better deal with these bad actors and keeping folks like that out of the marketplace.

Yeah, I mean, it feels like trust is pretty key in your space and arena. And so translating that to a world, well, I mean, I would say there’s a lot of trust in the crypto world but it’s a different beast, but bringing it back to the resources, the digital assets, and then the wider experience. It’s easy for me to wrap my head around baseball card, t-shirt, signature, things like that, but you guys, when it comes to experience, there’s a lot more to that that’s community driven, location, flights, travel, there’s so much that goes into the sports experience in any industry. Are you guys rapidly bringing in more than just the digital asset themselves?

Yeah, absolutely. In the background, I’ve been working on, and really this is all tied to licensing deals, so when you go out and sign a big league or a big team, you kind of try and bake in at the forefront what these experiential type events or signed jerseys or tickets to events are going to look like. These are very much things that we’re working on right now. We’re working on something pretty cool that will be a fan festival activation in Europe for one of the tournaments happening this summer. Can’t name it right now, but it’ll be a fun little activation where fans come to the fan festival, they participate in events, and we reward them with an NFT redemption. So to your point, there’s the digital fan experience, what that looks like from beginning to end, all the different digital touchpoints that you can engage with that person, and then there’s the physical realm as well, where Topps has such a great physical trading card following and community that my whole goal is to have digital on one side, physical on the other, and how can NFTs almost bring these two ecosystems together.

And one thing that I haven’t mentioned yet is Topps was recently acquired by Fanatics, which, for the folks that don’t know about Fanatics, they’re kind of like the officially licensed retail partner for a lot of the sports teams out there right now. So they have a big deal with the MLB, I believe they have a deal with the NFL and NBA, and so their main focus over the last 10 years has really been around e-commerce. And part of their strategy with acquiring Topps was so they could get into the digital collectibles and collectible space. So when we think about the user experience or the ecosystem that we’re building, we see a lot of synergies to be had with the ecosystem that Fanatics has built in terms of their strong e-comm presence and relationships with all these teams, but then layering in NFTs, digital collectibles, physical collectibles, and really thinking holistically around, hey, how can we get all these things to play together and amplify the fan experience from beginning to end.

Yeah, there’s a lot of talk about the potential of crypto that you have to have a good imagination to imagine and see and believe. But when it comes to sports, I mean, I know the 70s, 80s, 90s, just the years that I was alive on this earth, but I can imagine the shift from, like, World War II until the year 2000, the transformation of the sports industry when it comes to money spent, experiences. There’s a lot of shift and new things to emerge that you would never have imagined in 1960 or 1970, the amount of money that gets spent on sports and fans and marketing and all this. So when you start translating this to the NFT realm, that’s something that, okay, just with that physical growth in the physical world translated into this digital world and then back again, that’s something pretty exciting to think about as far as the possibilities.

Yeah, I would agree with you 100 percent there. I think the possibilities are really endless. And one thing that I will say is there are so many different companies that are popping up, and this is probably my advice to folks that aren’t familiar with NFTs or are thinking about getting into them: there is so much hype in this space right now where some of the prices of these NFTs or these NFT projects are astronomical, in the thousands or millions of dollars. In a lot of cases it out-prices normal individuals like myself from maybe even participating. So the one thing to keep in mind is this space right now is very much so concentrated on a very small percentage of the larger potential market size for NFTs and cryptocurrencies, as we think about the next two years, five years, ten years. So we’re very early on in this space.

But I think as a sports fan, and I’ll gravitate towards that just because that’s what I know and that’s where I initially made my first investment into an NFT as it relates to sports, sports is so beautiful because it’s really capturing moments in time. And when we think about an NFT, these NFTs can also be video moments. And so when you think about going to your first MLB game with your pops back when you were five, if you could have an NFT that commemorates that moment and becomes something that you hold forever, it’s just as much the internal emotional sentiment of owning something like that as it is the digital innovative piece as well. So there’s a lot of emotion, I feel like, in terms of how we think about our products. We definitely try to put ourselves in the fan’s or the consumer’s shoe when thinking about, hey, what are folks going to like. And something that I constantly relay to the team is, if this isn’t something that I would buy myself as a die-hard soccer fan, then it’s not something that I want to release. And so, to your point around the digital opportunity and the physical opportunity and how we can start to bring those things together and bridge that gap, NFTs for me was a really cool, innovative way to be able to do that.

And I’ve heard you use the word accessible several times throughout this, and it feels like, for me, I’m a technologist, I’m an old school database guy, I’ve been working with technology, I get excited and geeky about it, but my experience at this age is most people don’t care about technology at all until it matters to their actual life. And so I feel like the way you’re using the word accessible has potential to make this technology, something that’s pretty complex, crypto is not easy to wrap your head around, but to make this world a little bit more accessible to normals or mainstream people because of that emotional connection with the sports and their community and all of that.

Yeah, absolutely. It’s something that I’ve felt very strongly about since I started at Topps, and kudos to our leadership team for having that vision from the get-go. A lot of these NFT platforms, you can only buy with cryptocurrency, and that is kind of a barrier to entry. When we think about the level of adoption for cryptocurrency over the last five years or so, it’s been slow but it’s been steadily rising quicker and quicker. So when you combine that barrier to entry with also this mystified new NFT concept, it can be a little daunting, it can scare a lot of people, because a lot of what these people hear is, you know, a card that goes for millions of dollars, or they hear about all the fraud or all the scams happening. And as a potentially new user hearing those things, it’s like, well, if I’m on the fence, I might be a little afraid to get involved. So that’s really why we made it a priority to build our own platform, where folks coming to toppsnfts.com know every NFT on our platform is officially licensed, it’s backed by Topps, you own that officially licensed NFT collectible and the creative that comes in it. And so we’re trying to create this safe space while also thinking about the future as well. And I think one of the main priorities for us was, how do we reduce the barriers to entry here? And really it’s a two-step process to sign up, to create an account with your email and phone number, and you’re immediately thrown into our ecosystem where you can engage with different IPs, different leagues, and buy and sell NFTs at your will.

Another thing that I’ve tried to do, at least on the soccer front, is this idea of accessibility. I want to create products that aren’t going to price people out of what’s reasonable. And so when we think about the products we’re selling, I try to keep it generally at a price point that I think is fair. And I know maybe sometimes that’s not the best business approach in terms of generating the most revenue, but the reception from our community I think speaks for itself, where we’re releasing Bundesliga NFT video cards for a much lower price point than what some of these other competitors are doing. And that for me is kind of a proud moment, because like I said, I don’t want to sell a product or create a product that I wouldn’t buy myself. And so this is all about bringing new fans into the ecosystem. When you slap a 100, 200 price tag on something for 10 NFTs, sometimes it’s a little harder to get someone to buy into that, versus having a pack for maybe ten dollars where they get four NFTs. So this is all part of the strategy. This thought process goes into every product release that we have across all of our IPs, and it’s kind of a fun thing to do, because every release we’re learning new things about our customers, we’re learning new things about the product. And like I said, we engage with our community to make sure we’re taking their feedback to heart, and we’re trying to iterate and implement those things for our next releases.

Yeah, it feels like there’s a lot of talk about regulation coming for crypto, and there’s a lot of fear, a lot of emotions wrapped up in that. But some folks feel that there’s a grounding, a necessary grounding force and kind of stabilizing, and I’m skeptical whether that should be the government doing that or who. But this sounds like you all are going to introduce, Topps is going to introduce, the trust, some of that grounding and stability to help make a base for this so that it can grow and eliminate a lot of the volatility, address some of the fraud and some of the other things, and make it something that’s accessible to everyone.

Yeah, absolutely. That’s one of our main priorities, which is kind of why we put a lot of effort over the last three months or so trying to stabilize our platform, making sure it’s safe, making sure it’s secure, making sure that if a customer goes and buys something they’re getting what they paid for and that thing is being delivered. Right now, I think when you think about some of the blockchain technologies out there, Ethereum being kind of the main one in the NFT space, and Solana also popping up as well, the fees associated with what’s called minting an NFT, so creating an NFT and having that live on the blockchain, the fees associated with that are called gas fees. And right now, and I’m sure you guys are aware, the processing power to actually generate an NFT and add or create that on the blockchain requires a lot of computing power, a lot of energy, and sometimes in a lot of cases a lot of money. So as we think about the future of the blockchain piece of things, one, it’s right now all about level of adoption, so where are the most folks participating in buying these NFTs, what blockchain are they using, and that one right now is Ethereum. But we’ve actually gone with one that has lower gas fees and also is a little more eco-friendly called Avalanche. So those are kind of the top three in terms of users and communities, Ethereum, Solana, and then Avalanche. And we’ll see the development of more layer one and layer two blockchain solutions over the next year or two years. But that’s kind of a big pain point right now in this entire space, is just the number of fees associated with just minting an NFT. So these are all things we’re trying to take into account. If there are higher fees to mint an NFT, then usually those costs will be reflected in the price that we’re setting for our NFTs. So from a consumer standpoint, we’re trying to keep those as low as possible so we can keep our products at an affordable price point across the board.

Yeah, it sounds like the stabilization that’s needed in the early stages of this to really take it to that next level. On a slightly different tangent, I grew up in America, grew up playing soccer, been to some regional soccer games in America, went to my first one in Barcelona, whole different experience. So are you guys going to be able to fix soccer in America and get our men’s team better and make it so American fans are on board?

Man, I’ll tell you what, I was actually in Orlando a couple weeks ago for a US first Panama World Cup qualifier, and you’re totally right. Football is the global game, except here in America. And just to give you guys a little context, one of my main goals for coming to Topps was, maybe a little bit selfishly, to help grow the sport of soccer in America. And I looked at NFTs, what was happening in that space, and saw a great opportunity to grow the game here in America. I grew up playing youth soccer in California, I played Division One soccer at the College of William and Mary in Virginia, and have had fortunate experiences to be able to travel the world and see the sport be played in a lot of different countries. And I say this a lot with soccer, sometimes the ball speaks louder than words. You can be in any country in the world, and you pull out a soccer ball, and you can interact and engage with anyone without even speaking a word, which I think speaks to the power of soccer or football as a whole.

As it relates to America, I think qualifying for the World Cup was huge, I was really happy to see that. And we have a lot of young stars that are just coming in and slowly growing into the role that I think they will play on the US national team. So 2022 is going to be kind of a proving ground in Qatar. But in 2026 the World Cup will be in North America, Mexico, Canada, United States, and I think that’s going to be our time to shine on the international level. And I think you look at the work being done with Major League Soccer here in America, all the new MLS teams popping up across the country, Charlotte FC setting record attendance for their first inaugural game a couple months ago, so the soccer fever, as I like to call it, is here. I think it’s just all about the right type of leadership, the right type of coaching, and honestly just pure will. What I’d like to see from the US national team is them going out there and just fighting for the badge. I think we have a lot of great young stars, and I think the next few months is going to be about how we bring these talented players together to get them operating as one team, as one country, as one nation. And obviously you can tell I’m super passionate about soccer, but I think the one thing that I love about American soccer and American soccer players is they go out there and they compete. And I think when we think about the mentality or the team culture, that’s what I hope to see at the World Cup. I don’t think we have to play the beautiful game like Brazil does or Spain does, we just have to go out and compete and show the world that, hey, America is a future soccer powerhouse.

Yeah, well, you got to my next question, which was, what gets you passionate about the next five years. I think you covered that. And for me, I’m always joking when I fly places, like an airplane, I’m always fascinated by the airline industry, and I joke that this plane takes off because we collectively believe it’s going to. We’re going down the runway, all of us passengers believe this is going to take off. And so I feel like there’s a certain responsibility soccer fans have too, in the overall experience that’s going to propel our teams to this global position. So I was somewhat joking when I asked that last question, but you’re clearly dead serious about that, that we can harness this digitally and in person and actually get there.

Absolutely. I’ll just use one very interesting but very real idea. Right now on our platform we have a bunch of MLB Major League Baseball product, we have Godzilla product, we have Bazooka Joe bubblegum product, and we have Bundesliga soccer product. When we look at the number of repeat users, so folks that come in for that first launch, second launch, third, fourth, ultimately a lot of what folks look for in the NFT space, yeah, the reality is some people are looking to make a little bit of money by buying and selling cards. And I would guarantee you a lot of the users on our platform now may not have been soccer-savvy or interested in soccer, but the second they see a big Bundesliga soccer star card going for ten thousand dollars, they immediately become interested, and they immediately start researching who that player is, when they’re going to get traded, how many goals they have. So a lot of what we see in our Discord is people actually engaging and talking about the sport. And we have a number of MLB high spenders that also are buying Bundesliga packs and trying to learn about the sport and the team and the club. So it’s super fascinating to see, especially in Discord, where you have a potentially new user who knows nothing about soccer, and then another user who knows a lot about soccer, and them coming together and talking about, hey, who’s going to be the next hot player that I should be looking out for? And those are some of the fun conversations that we have with our community. And even internally, as we think about the products, we obviously want to include the best players, the best moments, so all of these pieces come into play in terms of, one, our understanding of the game, who the players are, where that team or that league is headed, but then on the back end being able to create product that really plays up all the great things happening in the world of sports, in the world of soccer.

Wow, I’m sold, man. You pitched me on, I’m a believer now in this, because, like I said, the crypto isn’t what excites me, it’s the experiences that people are going to have. And I think you really speak to that in a meaningful way, and elevate it above a lot of the crypto kind of BS that I’ve been hearing over the last year or two. So this is impressive, I’m stoked. This has been a great conversation, I’m really looking forward to seeing what you all are building. Where can we head to learn a little bit more about it?

Yeah, so if you go to toppsnfts.com, you’ll be thrown into our NFT experience. Like I mentioned, it’s very easy to create an account, all you need is an email, you create a username, two-factor authentication with the mobile phone number, and then you’re in. You can upload a credit card or debit card to pay for either packs in the store or cards in the marketplace. But the experience from where it is today to where it was six months ago is much better, in terms of the way in which folks can get to what they’re looking for. With that being said, a lot more work to be done on our end from a customer experience standpoint, from a product innovation standpoint. But I can guarantee you, myself and all the other team members at Topps are working day in, day out to bring this to life for our community.

I appreciate that work, I appreciate you coming here and sharing it with our audience, and appreciate this conversation. Thank you so much. Yeah, appreciate it, Kin. Thanks for having me, and I really enjoyed this conversation.

Thanks again to Roshan for stopping by. You can find more about Topps at topps.com, and you can find Roshan on LinkedIn. You can subscribe to the Breaking Changes podcast at postman.com/events/breaking-changes. I’m your host, Kin Lane, and until next time, cheers.