April Dawson, University North Carolina

Thank you for tuning in to today’s full episode of the Breaking Changes podcast. I’m your host and Chief Evangelist for Postman, Kin Lane. With Breaking Changes we explore specific topics from the world of APIs, but through the lens of business and engineering leadership. Joining me today we have April Dawson, Associate Dean of Technology and Innovation and Professor of Law at North Carolina Central University. April shared with me how her university was investing in the next generation of skills lawyers are going to be needing, and the role that APIs play when it comes to not just how lawyers practice law but also how policy that governs the tech sector will be made in the future. Let’s start with the basics. Who are you and what do you do?

Well, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me to be on this show. The content and information that you provide to the community is much needed, and so I’m happy to be part of the conversation. My name is April Dawson, I am the Associate Dean of Technology and Innovation at the North Carolina Central University School of Law. I’m also a Professor of Law, and I have taught in the past constitutional law, a Supreme Court seminar, administrative law, voting rights, a number of courses. Right now I’m focusing on developing, or helping to develop, our law and technology program. We have a new technology law and policy center at the law school, and that center has been able to be launched because we received a five million dollar grant from Intel last year. So the center was formally launched in the fall of 2021. We’ve brought on an executive director, Diane Littlejohn, and we have a tech law fellow, Cedric Pickett, and we have a number of students that are incredibly excited about the tech center, what they can learn about the emerging legal landscape which is being greatly influenced by technology. It’s an exciting time to be in the legal academy, and especially exciting time to be here at NCCU School of Law.

Wow, sounds like an amazing opportunity to make an impact on where technology is heading, but the collision of that with the world of law. This is the kind of front line we explore a lot, across many different industries, is how technology and APIs, mostly, are intersecting with real estate, with finance, with health care, and in this case with the legal realm. So why is this, primarily for folks who are looking to practice law in the tech sector, or is it much wider than that?

It’s definitely much wider than that, and it’s because technology impacts everything. So you may have students that are interested in a specific area of the law that touches technology, say cyber security law or internet law or data privacy, and then you might have students that are interested in regulations or policy work. As we know, technology is moving very rapidly and the law is slow to keep up, and so we need young lawyers, older lawyers, who are comfortable being in the policy-making space but also have an understanding of technology. When we think about companies and their compliance, making sure that they don’t run afoul of laws that exist, and again because technology is moving so quickly, there have to be people on the ground, lawyers or those that are legally trained, who are able to assist and advise and counsel their clients when it comes to these new developing regulations, rules, policies, and legislation.

Do the students participating in the program have to have programming experience, do they have to have direct exposure with programming and writing code, or is this something that’s much broader?

Yeah, so that’s a great question, and it’s a question that a lot of students ask. You’ve got students who go to law school, they know they’re interested in the law, but many of them aren’t aware of the law and technology space before they come here. And so when they find out about it and they see all of these jobs that we’re talking about, they’re like, well, I don’t have a tech background, is this something that I can take advantage of? And it absolutely is. You do not need a tech background. What you do need is a willingness to learn, the ability to be uncomfortable, to go outside of your comfort zone, because again this stuff is changing daily, and so there are technologies that will exist a year from now that don’t currently exist today. Everyone in this space, and you know this I think better than most, having been right there on the ground seeing the technologies evolve, you have to be comfortable with shifting sands. So if the students have an interest in the space even if they don’t have a background, and they’re eager to learn, and some aspect of technology kind of excites them, then it’s a good space for them to explore.

Yeah, I think the level of curiosity, the fearlessness you have to be, I see it across many different industries, not just the legal field, but folks who just aren’t afraid of technology, kind of hitting view source in your browser and seeing what’s going on behind the scenes, always curious, always poking and prodding. We need more of those people to be equipped. While I’m always trying to educate programmers and actual developers and computer science students about APIs and the ways technology is impacting our world, I find it to be more important that we get the normals, or the muggles, the non-programmers, involved, because these are the folks who are going to be closer to the business challenges, the business problems, the impacts that are being made. Teaching them that hey, this isn’t just for the wizards, the programmers, technology’s for everyone, is a pretty critical piece of what we’re doing.

Yeah, and I think it makes for better problem solving when you have different folks at the table. You’ve got those that are very comfortable coding, you’ve got those that only interface with technology from a consumer standpoint, and having all of these folks at the table just gets us to better problem solving. So I completely agree. I will say, and this is one of the reasons why students ask me about, I don’t have a background in tech, I mean, I love tech, my undergraduate degree is computer science and I was a programmer before going to law school, and so I’ve always loved the tech space. I’ve used tech very heavily in my teaching, I’ve always used it, and so when I became more familiar with how the practice of law is changing with technology, I completely jumped on it. However, I know a number of legal academics who are very active in the legal technology education space who don’t have a tech background. I have met some fabulous lawyers in all aspects where you’ve got an intersection between technology and law who don’t have a tech background. And so it’s a mixed bag. We’ve got people from all backgrounds and all areas, and I think one thing that we all do share, though, is a fascination with technology, and then you can come up to speed with the tech.

So what drove you to this intersection? You have the tech chops, the background, you’re a lawyer, what’s the passion driving you to steer this program forward?

I so appreciate that question, because before moving into the legal technology education space, like I said, I have always used technology. I used to do a lot of workshops on utilizing technology to help us improve our teaching, to use it to improve your pedagogy. I went to the ABA Tech Show, I’m going to say it was in 2018, and I’ve been teaching now for going on 16 years, and I’ve been in the ivory tower, which I love, and prior to becoming a law professor I had my own practice, I’ve worked for large law firms, I’ve worked for the Department of Justice, so I’ve had a wide range of actual practice experience as well. But one thing that happens when you are in the legal academy, when you are teaching and you’re not practicing, is you can not be quite aware of how the actual practice of law is changing. And so when I went to the ABA Tech Show, I’m hearing about the ways that lawyers are currently practicing and how they’re utilizing technology and all of these different types of jobs that didn’t exist when I was in law school, that I didn’t even know about. And students incur a lot of debt coming to law school, most students do, and they all want to be gainfully employed, they all want to serve the community. Lawyers are officers of the court, we serve the public, and we’ve got these jobs out there that need to be filled, we’ve got graduates who want to be gainfully employed and be of service. And the law schools, I’m speaking kind of in generalities but I think most in the legal academy would agree with me, law schools are behind the times in terms of providing students with the type of education that they need to be equipped to handle the practice of law as it exists at this moment and as it will certainly exist in the future when we’re thinking about the intersection between law and technology. So my excitement and enthusiasm right now is, I see these brilliant minds before me in my class and I’m like, there’s this amazing job over here that’s focusing on cyber security, and we need those that understand policy and those that understand legal issues and those that understand technology so they can help guide us when we’re thinking about policy decisions that have to be made. And the last thing that I’ll say, at least on this point, is we talk about legislation and we talk about regulations, and if you look at our representatives particularly at the federal level, now I’m over the age of 50 so I feel comfortable saying this, but we need to get some fresh blood in there. And I tell my students all the time, I hope you all are thinking about running for office and being in that space, because it’s incredibly challenging having those that are going to make technology-related policy decisions that don’t understand the fundamentals of technology on any level. So I’m hoping to encourage and inspire them to be leaders in this space.

Yeah, wow, amen. I can’t support that more, and that’s definitely the driving force behind my career. I worked for the Obama administration, and I would say I did not understand fully how important policy is in our country. I felt like I went in there pretty classic narrow-minded Silicon Valley white guy, I’ll say, and thinking, oh, I can solve anything with technology, I’m going to come here and bring my little techno solution toolbox and I’m going to make the world better. And then I started seeing how policy that was set up after the Vietnam War to digitize veterans records is still in place, and if I go to just apply some new techno solution to it, a lot of that funding, the policy, a lot of it gets unwound, and a lot of veterans wouldn’t receive healthcare. So there’s more to it than me just coming in and standing up an API or building that new cool iPad app, there’s a lot more behind it, and seeing the impact that you can make with a thoughtful policy change, not one that’s not informed or setting a bad precedent, but actually informed policy with the type of people present at the table that you speak of, and ideally a diverse set of voices and faces. I saw the importance of that, because I feel like the federal government at that stage is one of the only things that stands in between us and corporations and underserved populations, corporations doing things with technology. So it’s an interesting line for folks to be at, and I agree, we need to equip that next generation of folks to realize that we need them there. So when it comes to this program, is this just for students leaving university, or how does this play out with the old guard, the old legal guard? How are we going to make change that’s necessary in that old guard, is this program targeting them, or are these young students going to go out into the field and make the change that we want to see?

Yeah, well, the wonderful thing about our tech center, and whenever I’m talking about the tech center I always want to give a shout-out to our dean, Browne Lewis, who, this is her second year as dean of the law school, and when she came on board she wanted to make sure that we had a tech center, so she was able to get us funding, and so we’re incredibly proud of the tech center. As we were thinking about the mission of the tech center, there are a couple of things that we’re focusing on. North Carolina Central University is an HBCU, so it’s a historically Black university, and the mission of the university and the law school is serving those communities that are often overlooked and marginalized and underserved. We also, as far as the law school is concerned, we think about diversifying the legal profession. The legal profession has a very small percentage of Black lawyers, and then when we think about technology, a very small percentage of those that are in the technology space are Black, and then you join the two together, so a legal technologist, and the numbers become even smaller. So one of the goals of the center is to make sure that we train up and develop legal technologists so that we can diversify the field, because as you and I have both noted, having more voices at the table leads to better decisions. So at least initially we’re focusing on our students, they are the ones that are in the building. We have a law and technology certificate, so as our students are working towards their JD, they can also take law and technology courses and earn a law and tech certificate. So in addition to getting their JD they’ll also have this tech certificate, which basically demonstrates that they’ve done quite a bit of work studying and focusing and thinking critically about law and technology issues. The other thing that we do is we look for ways that we can support our alums, many of whom are new lawyers that are just new into the legal profession, and they’re at a point where they’re not so entrenched in a particular area and they’re able to be flexible to pivot, so providing support for our alums as well. The other thing that we want our center to do is to provide information to the community. Something that we’ve been seeing a lot about fortunately, when we’re thinking about algorithmic justice and these algorithms that are making these decisions, or that are providing information to the decision makers, and how if the data is skewed or the algorithm is skewed you can have an exacerbation of disparities that already exist. The criminal justice system is a perfect example, if you’re talking about predictive policing, or whether an individual should be able to get out on parole, and when you’ve got these systems and models that are being used, they can cause more harm than good, and the communities that are being most greatly impacted are communities of color. So we want to include the community as well, because the more of us that know about it, that are talking about it, means that we can make sure that society is not blindly following technology without being really critical about it. So those are the areas where we’re hoping to make a real impact.

So needed, because I’ll be the first to admit, in the AI space there’s a lot of black box, kind of voodoo aspect to it, and we don’t all understand how it’s doing what it’s doing, and there’s not a lot of provenance on the data. The data that goes into this, whether it be PDF scanning of court records, the algorithms could be biased, but the data itself, court records themselves, there’s a lot of systemic bias in the data itself because it’s historically been that way. And then the algorithms themselves, there’s many layers to that, and if these just keep happening in the dark, in the shadows behind applications and in tech circles, and don’t have eyeballs on the process and asking questions along the way, we’re just going to keep perpetuating this and moving it forward. So that’s definitely a pretty critical area. But AI still intimidates me, and I’m a software engineer of many years. So how are you equipping students to, how deep do you go down some of these rabbit holes as far as data or AI to give them the certificate? You just got to kind of keep it somewhat superficial, right?

Yeah, well, the wonderful thing about the program is the students have an opportunity to be exposed to a wide range of law and technology issues. So if you have the certificate, you have done some study and discussion and thinking about blockchain, even if you don’t choose to do a deep dive into that. All of our students will have been exposed to that, all of our students will have been exposed to artificial intelligence and data privacy and all of the issues. So there’s a comprehensive exposure to all of the different areas where law and technology intersect. There are a couple of classes that the students will take that will expose them to that broad range, but then the students also have an opportunity to do a deep dive into a particular area that they may want to explore. Let me go back to the broad exposure. The reason why that’s important, or one of the reasons, is there are many law students who just don’t even know about law and technology, they don’t know about all of these different areas, and so they come into law school thinking, I want to be a lawyer like the lawyer I see on TV. Well, most lawyers aren’t like the lawyers we see on TV, but people have these preconceived notions, I did when I went to law school, and they don’t understand the possibilities. So if we at least initially expose them to a broad range of topics, they can see what resonates with them, and then once they say, okay, I really like this data analytics space or data privacy space, I think I’ll do a deeper dive into that. So then they have an opportunity to do writing seminars, they have to do externships, they have to write papers, they can take electives on different areas, and so they can do an incredibly deep dive. One of the other things that we’re employing here at Central Law is certifications, helping to support our students so that they can get some of these tech certifications that more and more lawyers are getting. For example, lawyers who are in the data privacy space, many of them are getting the CIPP certification, the Certified Information Privacy Professional certification. This certification is not just for lawyers, and in fact the majority of people who have that certification are probably not lawyers, but lawyers who plan to practice or advise or consult in that space, it makes sense for them to have that certification, and so we want our students to get that certification before they graduate. Those students that are interested in cyber security, we’ve got a class that’s being offered in the summer so that the students can learn about cyber security, prep for the Security Plus exam, get that certification while they’re also learning about the intersection between law and cyber security. So we want to be able to provide them with not just foundational information but to support them as they do a deeper dive into the particular law and technology area that resonates with them.

Yeah, I could see that really helping folks find a long enough trajectory for their career that could send them down other job routes once they get out of school. They could work for certain companies or government agencies and find something that they can really get passionate about and go deep and be able to do something, and maybe even on the tech side, get play around with algorithms a little bit more, get a little bit deeper dive on that blockchain that’s going to be needed to understand the regulatory winds that are coming when it comes to blockchain, that kind of stuff. So super valuable.

Yeah, and on your point about they may even want to get into the tech, so I will be teaching an AI class this fall, I will be team-teaching it with a computer science professor from main campus, so we’re going to kind of come together, we will have her graduate students and my law students in the class together. All of the students, including the law students, will be doing some coding as well, all of the students will be doing some case reading as well. And so for some students that might really excite them, so they want to do even more coding, which is fine, and there’s a space for that. Lawyers who know how to code, there’s a small group of lawyers that geek out over that, and that’s fine, and there’s a place for that.

Well, there’s also a lot of emerging what’s called low-code, no-code, citizen developer tools, things that you don’t have to write a lot of code, and I would say having these pair programming environments and realities of bringing tech folks and business folks from different disciplines together, I see helps reduce the complexity of some of the code and things we write. I’m building an AI library, it helps me to simplify and distill it down into more usable, simple code snippets, if I have someone asking questions like, why’d you do that, that didn’t make any sense, because otherwise us technologists love complexity. So I think that pairing business folks, legal folks with technologists really helps bring it down to that next level, and that’s important for technology right now.

And I think your point about making the ability to create accessible to the citizens, with the low-code, no-code applications, that it shouldn’t be where you have to have programming, that when I think about the programming that I’ve done, which has been many many years ago, the only folks who were able to do that type of creation were those who either had a degree or had some sort of specialized training. But it should be the case that if someone desires to build and create an application, that those tools, because they can be available, that they are available. And we’re actually seeing a similarity in the legal field. It used to be the case before the internet that you had to be a lawyer in order to understand the law, because the information just was not accessible to regular folks. Well, now with the internet and with so many companies that are providing information to regular folks about legal issues, you don’t have to be a lawyer to gain some understanding and have some foundational knowledge when it comes to issues related to law. And I’m a big proponent of, let’s get the information out there, because again, the more the information’s out there, the better we will be able to come up with all types of solutions. I would hope that the practice of law evolves to the point where we don’t have this access to justice gap which we currently have because people can’t afford attorneys. And so what do we see happening? We see that there are, kind of like the no-code, low-code solutions, now we have solutions where there are applications and programs and companies that are providing legal information to folks who don’t have lawyers, who can’t afford lawyers, but they still need that information. And I’m just big about, let’s make this information and these tools available for everyone.

I’m so on board with that, both directions, because terms of service, privacy policies, for me, reading those has to feel like a lawyer having to open up a thing of Python or code, programming. For me, having to look at it, sometimes I just dread, all right, what does this mean? And I’ve been part of a couple, Terms of Service Didn’t Read, which was like the biggest lie on the internet is that we read our terms of service, because we don’t. But there were several others like that that would have terms of service on the left side and then a translated version, simple, on the right side that said, this is what this paragraph means in a simple sentence. Yes. And being able to help me, so those bridges I think are super critical, both directions, from the policy side getting people understanding legal policy and not being so intimidated by the way laws are put down, I think is important. So back to the program and how it got started, and Intel is helping fund this. What’s the benefit for corporations stepping up and funding this type of program and making it happen?

Yeah, thanks for asking that question, because there are several benefits. I think first and foremost it’s being a good corporate citizen. When you recognize that there’s a problem with society and you have resources to help address that, then I think all companies and corporations should take steps to do their part. Corporations exist and are profitable because regular folks like you and me support them, and without folks in society they would not exist, so it is incumbent upon them to be good corporate citizens. So when we think about technology, when we think about the practice of law, and we’ve talked already about diversity, there is a lack of diversity, and Intel recognized this and thought that the dollars that they had and that they could provide us would help in all of our efforts to better diversify the field. Because if the legal field is more diverse it means there’s a greater number within the population that will be served, and again when we think about AI, who’s building the AI, whose code is going inside that black box, and if it’s only folks that look a certain way that have a certain background, the algorithms are going to be incredibly flawed, as we have already seen, because you don’t have enough diversity, you don’t have enough diverse voices at the table. So the legal industry, the tech industry, the legal tech industry needs to be more diverse, and Intel recognizes this, and so that’s one of the reasons why they chose to give the money to an HBCU, to North Carolina Central University. So being good corporate citizens, having a diverse industry is good for them, because we’re also talking about a talent pool. There are so many incredibly talented young people who exist of all shapes, sizes, colors, gender, and when you limit who you focus on, then you’re limiting yourself in terms of the talent pool that is available. So if they’re able to support these young folks who are interested in this particular space, when they’re looking to hire, because we’re all getting older and we’ve got to think about succession planning, who’s going to take my place, you want to make sure that you’ve got a good robust group of folks who are diverse and representative available who can come in and ensure the longevity of the company. So there’s some selfishness there as well, they want to make sure that there are lawyers who are able to do the type of work that Intel does, and we absolutely have an abundance of students in our fine institution who, given the opportunities, given the proper training, would be stellar, outstanding employees for Intel or any type of technology company.

So would you say the program’s part internal, to educate and equip students with what they need, but is it also external, to help address pipeline issues and bring more attention to the fact that this wealth of students and everything they know is ready for employment and to be part of the job market?

Yes, yes. So I love this pipeline question, because we think about pipeline in two ways. We think about pipeline on the back end, when we’re thinking about bringing students who might not realize that there are legal jobs that might interest them, to encourage them to consider a career in law. So we’re looking at STEM students, students who are already in the tech space at the undergraduate level, letting them know about these legal technology jobs, or jobs where you’ve got this intersection between the two, because they may not have thought about it before. And so we are trying to be supportive of those students, provide them education and information, so we can get a pipeline into law school, because again, we need lawyers who are comfortable with technology now. And I can’t emphasize enough, you don’t have to have a STEM background to be an outstanding legal tech lawyer, but we do want to at least make sure that those students are aware. So we’ve got a pipeline from that end. And then when we think about the pipeline on the other side, Intel is providing us with the initial funding, and the five million dollars is for five years, and we are already in the process of identifying additional funding so that this center is not just a five-year center, we’re going for the long haul here. So we’re identifying additional funding as well, but we do want to use our institution to feed the pipeline that these companies are looking for. When you look at any type of technology area that’s growing, there is a need for technologists, not just legal technologists. If we think about cyber security, they need folks who are experts in cyber security, and with any area there’s always a legal component, and there is a desperate need for lawyers who have expertise in cyber security. I was in the class with my students the other day and we were talking about cyber security, and I said, how many of you all want to be a cyber security lawyer, and no one put their hands up. I said, how many of you all think that cyber security is going to continue to be an issue in this country, in the world, and in fact will increase, and they all put their hands up. I said, well, do you all think that there’s an intersection somewhere between cyber security and law, and they’re like, yeah, absolutely. Well, what does that tell you about the job market? And we’re talking about good-paying jobs. So we want to make sure that all companies who have a need for lawyers across the board, but as it relates to the tech center, lawyers who are adept, have an understanding, and are equipped to work in a law and technology area or space. And there are many, so it’s not just kind of law and technology generally, but are we talking about policy, are we talking about data, are we talking about AI, are we talking about cyber security, are we talking about autonomous vehicles, all of these things are exploding and we need lawyers. So we’re providing a pipeline for all of these organizations that know they need lawyers who are able to do these types of jobs.

Yeah, so needed. So my role as Chief Evangelist at Postman, I do lots of technical things, I have a tech background, but the number one tool in my toolbox is storytelling and getting the word out there. My wife has her masters in folklore and storytelling. I’m still telling stories from 2013 when I worked in the Obama administration, because some of those stories are still bearing fruit. I started doing work at this pace that policy works, and it works in like 5, 10, 15, 20 year increments, and I’m seeing the power of that. In Silicon Valley, I’m in Oakland, California, so I’m kind of in the belly of the beast when it comes to tech, and several companies I work with, we need more eyeballs. Let’s take cyber security, because a lot of the vulnerabilities and issues aren’t that, we don’t see them, the people we have at the table aren’t seeing them at all or aren’t seeing them as issues, and so we need more people at the table. And when you go to hire, the classic answer you get is, well, let’s go to HBCUs and see what we can do, and they’re like, well, we did that work, they’re not training CS students, they’re not doing the STEM investment, and I’m like, really, interesting, because once you start scratching and talking to people, there’s actually quite a few people being trained up in these areas. So that gap is, I know there’s other systemic illnesses there, but it’s also a storytelling pipeline, a storytelling gap, where the stories just aren’t getting out or penetrating Silicon Valley, that these pipelines exist.

And that’s one of the reasons why I so appreciate you inviting me on to this podcast, because you’re providing us with a platform and amplifying the message that we have, and the more that people know about what we’re doing here at NCCU School of Law, the more they’ll reach out, and they’ll be able to take advantage of the wonderful talent pool and amazing students and future lawyers that we have in this space. It can be very frustrating watching the news and seeing what’s going on in the world, and I feel incredibly fortunate to have a job where every single day I have an opportunity to interact and engage with the future, and I’ma tell you, from my perspective the future is incredibly bright. These students are amazing and they are going to make exceptional lawyers, they are going to change the world. So thank you very much for letting me share and give you my thoughts, and more importantly to amplify North Carolina Central University School of Law and the tech center in particular.

No, I appreciate your time. This is a very important issue. I think if we’re going to take on all these issues we face, from blockchain and currency to AI, we’re going to have to have more folks at the table to be able to see and understand, because that’s the biggest problem with digital, is being able to see things. It’s all digital, it’s really difficult to see everything that’s happening, and when you don’t have a diverse set of eyes on problems you miss even more than I think even in the physical world. So it’s really important in the API space, and APIs are invisible, so I’m always about helping see this reality. So I really appreciate you being here and sharing the program. What’s next for the program, what’s 2022, 2023 look like, what’s top of mind?

Yeah, so the law and technology certificate, the center was launched in the fall, and our law and technology certificate was also launched in the fall, and so we’re bringing in a new group of students right every fall, and so they will be the first students that will come in with the center already in place, with a certificate already in place. We’ve got a number of students that are making a decision about which law school to attend thinking specifically about the tech center, so we’re excited about that and encouraging them to join us. It’s interesting that you mentioned API. One of the things that we’re hoping to do, one of the many things we’re hoping to do, is to help the students gain an understanding of some of these applications. There’s a lot of legal data that’s out there, and students hear about APIs, lawyers hear about APIs, but a lot of folks don’t understand what they are, and the concept is not that complex, it seems complex, but once you pull back the layers a little bit you can see how incredibly powerful they are. So one of the things that we want to do is to make sure that our students have an opportunity to get their hands dirty and do things with the technology and the information that more and more lawyers are thinking about doing, that we encourage them to do. So we’re just really excited about all the different projects and the excitement that the students have as well, because the legal landscape continues to change as a result of technology, and so we just want to make sure that we prepare our students for the future.

Yes, and based upon our conversation we’ve fired up a couple other kind of offshoots, but one of the areas I want to give back to you for your time here is, I’ll write up a few stories on some of the leading areas that I’ve been working on and seeing when it comes to the intersection of APIs, technology, and law. I worked on the Oracle v. Google copyright case, I worked on that since 2012, and it all went all the way to the Supreme Court, but APIs are copyrightable, that is the law of the land, even though I don’t believe they should be. So that’s an important one. Facebook’s anti-competitive practice around Instagram and WhatsApp is another top API one the FTC is looking into right now. GDPR, CCPA, and privacy, those are all very big API questions. So I’m going to refresh my list of top API legal issues, and as those stories come off the assembly line I’ll mention you and the program and this conversation, I’ll share those with you, and then maybe we can light the fire under some of the students and get them involved in some of these issues.

Oh, absolutely, that would be great, thank you so much.

Yes, thank you. This has been great, really appreciate your time. I’m really appreciative to Letroy, who’s my partner in crime on this episode and on the show, for bringing us together, and thank you so much for spending this time with me today.

Absolutely, and thank you as well, and thank you Letroy for reaching out, we appreciate it.

Thanks again to April for stopping by. You can find more about North Carolina Central University at law.nccu.edu, and you can find April on LinkedIn. You can subscribe to the Breaking Changes podcast at postman.com/events/breaking-changes. I’m your host Kin Lane, and until next time, cheers.